Clifford and Carlos at the Dali Universe

How close were you?
I always saw him as a father figure. It was very platonic, besides which Dali was incapable of communicating any sort of sexual energy.

Why?
He was blocked and when he grabbed you it was as though he was putting his clutches on you but then he would go on about how I had nice shoulder blades and a nice skeleton. He loved very thin and frail people and I modelled a lot for him.

Were you happy to model for him?
I felt in debt to him for the longest time, I felt that he had been so wonderful to me in many ways and had pushed me. He had even offered to pay me in the first months of our relationship and I'd said "no way", I didn't want any money. He was very sweet but what I enjoyed the most was the glam, he got me hooked. It was like a drug, that was a real drug that I had withdrawal symptoms from, going out to expensive restaurants with movie stars and so forth.

What were these people like?
Some were very awful and some were quite nice. Some would try to elbow you out of the picture. I liked Yul Brynner the most, he was wonderful because he had this ability to make you feel like you'd known him all your life. On one occasion I was at a hotel with Dali when he walked in and I was sitting on the floor for some reason, I was eccentric. He came and sat down on the floor, we started chatting and he was telling me about his life. He told me that he was part gypsy or something which I found fascinating, I had a thing for the gypsy way of life and that they were always travelling. Freedom.

What was Kirk Douglas like?
Oh he was awful! He was like any big movie star and very pretentious. At first I was terribly disappointed because he is so small when you meet him and he pushes himself around. He's hard.

Did you ever meet Luis Bunuel?
No but his son is a very good friend of mine. I have an art gallery and the son does shows with me sometimes, he does sculptures. Bunuel had a very difficult relationship with Dali, after being very good friends at school they sort of drifted apart but they made 2 films together: Un Chien Andalou and L'Age D'Or, the painter Max Ernst is in that also.

Did Dali ever talk about Bunuel?
He always tried to get back on his good side every year, he would send him a card but Bunuel would answer him in the same way, it doesn't translate very well but he'd always reply, "Water that has passed through once does not move the windmill." Every year Dali persisted, he wanted to do another part of Un Chien Andalou with him but Bunuel would not have anything to do with him.

How did their relationship break down?
Well politically there were differences, Bunuel stayed in exile while Dali came back and became an official painter and by warming up to the regime he became Franco's showpiece. Bunuel was having a very hard time and needed to borrow $50, because they were exiles in New York. Dali refused to lend him any money and there was talk that he also got him sacked from a job that he'd just landed at a cinemateque. He supposedly got in touch with the cinemateque and said, "be careful, this man is a Communist." It was also a very bad time to say that sort of thing. Dali wrote a long letter to Bunuel explaining why he would not lend him the $50 and Bunuel kept the letter in his wallet for the rest of his life, to teach himself never to be mean and to always be generous to others. When he died he gave the letter to his son, Juan Luis Bunuel who still has it today.

Did you ever have a creative relationship with him or collaborate as equals?
No, there was never any talk of that because he didn't want any equals. I found out later that he didn't want any followers, he wanted to be unique and my only collaboration with him was to send him things of interest when we were apart. He didn't want to teach anybody either, he was too caught up in his ego.